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bras suck

Sep 17, 2015 3:18 PM

I don't know if this is bc of the constant swelling and extra-sensitivity, but I freaking HATE bras. And unfortunately, I'm not the type that can go out in public without one... if you know what I mean. I don't know if there's a question here so much as I needed to vent. I'm glad I didn't live back in the corset-era, but seriously, women, why do we subject ourselves to these instruments of torture?! Underwire? - you mean BARBED wire? I swear I need a seamstress to make me bras. I just want enough padding so I'm not "high-beaming" anyone, and material that doesn't feel like I'm being slowly squeezed by wire netting. I don't understand why all this seems impossible. Ugh! Grr! End rant.

Ps. Sorry to any men on this app who just read that, or anyone who feels this is a TMI.

Sep 17, 2015 3:59 PM

I'm in te same boat and have been sice puberty. I remember eating strapped in my first one and my friends being jealous. Inated sports and was hunky so my mom made sure I remembered to wear one. Only dealing with cronic pain for 4 yrs and puberty hit maybe 16 yrs ago? But they have been the devil since introduction. I wear this really realy loose knit ones. I'm lucky in that I'm a B cup so not much support required but I put swimsuit pads in ecause yes my nipples get super hard he like to say hello at the slightest chill.

Sep 17, 2015 5:35 PM

I have the same problem, can't stand bras and can't go out without one. I've tried all different kinds and none are better. So I only wear them when I must and take it off as soon as I can. My friend wears sports bras and she loves them says they almost don't hurt at all. I don't know if that helps but at least you know others are there and understand.

Sep 17, 2015 5:54 PM

I am the same as smile mom. I hate them and remove them as soon as i can. I enjoy the colder months as they allow me to go bra free with lots of big jackets to cover up. 😁

Sep 17, 2015 6:08 PM

If I could burn my bra, I would. That is the first thing that comes off when I walk in the door. Kitty, I don't know if you are in the US or not, but Lane Bryan really does make some extremely comfortable and padded bras as well.

Sep 17, 2015 7:14 PM

When I come home, I tell my husband it is "bra-off-o-clock" lol

Sep 17, 2015 7:54 PM

I wear sports bras only when needed. Fisrt thing off when I'm home. I'm getting to where they are to much to handle. Pulling them on is a task itself. Need them to hook in front.

Sep 17, 2015 9:06 PM

Bendon make comfy bras. I don't know if they're available in the US but they are very comfortable as far as an over shoulder boulder holder can be!!!! It also helps being fitted by someone who knows what they're doing. I worked in a lingerie shop for years and was professionally trained. It does help immensely.

Sep 17, 2015 9:29 PM

I found a very comfortable sports bra by Playtex, and it has no wires or skipping straps. I will never wear another! πŸ™πŸŒΌ

Sep 17, 2015 9:33 PM

I totally agree, I have a CA calcium build up so my body is hard. The wire in the bra be hurting the side of my breast because it's hard on the side of it. Ugh so many struggles smh.

Sep 17, 2015 9:42 PM

I have never been able to wear an underwire bra. They would leave large brusies on me. I can't even wear one the has the square adjustments on the straps because they too left brusies. I was getting some I loved from Fashion Bug, but alas, there is no more Fasion Bug. I did find one at our local Walmart that I can tolerate. It fastens in the front so I don't put my shoulder out fastening it.

Sep 17, 2015 10:20 PM

Check into playtex 18 hour. No underwire and most don't even have lace

Sep 17, 2015 10:28 PM

Flappy, what's the name of the platex sports one you wear? And Puella, the one I tried on today was that platex 18 hr and it had no padding at all and that material scratched the hell out of me. I was sorely disappointed (I'd heard other ppl liked those)

Sep 17, 2015 11:43 PM

I'm in the same boat you are. Unfortunately I can't go out without one and they're so painful that the minute I get home I rip it off. I've tried all different brands and sports bras too. The most comfortable brand I've found is Soma for when I have to put one on.

Sep 18, 2015 3:02 AM

Omg!! I thought it was just me!!!!
If only I still had perky puppies that didn't need holding up!
Def gonna look into the playtex bra.

Sep 18, 2015 3:18 AM

Kittypain, I have the same issue. There are areas on my back and ribcage are horribly painful when I wear a bra. I can't go out in public without a bra either. I would feel very uncomfortable and I'd be afraid that is trip over them..LOL!! I don't wear a bra in the house only when I have to go out somewhere and as soon as I get home, it's the first thing that I take off. See, aren't you glad you mentioned it??? LOL!!! Now you know there are a whole bunch of us. I don't get crazy about it, I hurt with it or without it since I'm large breasted. Actually have given thought to getting a reduction.

Sep 18, 2015 6:21 AM

If your in Oz try Intimo. A bit pricey and you have to have a party but I'm a convert. My Aunty is VERY well endowed and was able to comfortably wear one of their strapless bras.
They are actually reccomended by the breats cancer specialist nurses and doctors for their sports bra for after surgery bras

Sep 18, 2015 6:31 AM

Platex play

Sep 18, 2015 7:17 AM

I can't wear an underwire either because it irritates me and because of the scaring on the left side, no way! The only time I have gone bra less was for a month after my last surgery. There was no way considering how deep the incision was. Camis and tank tops were my friends!!!!!

Sep 18, 2015 10:29 AM

I guess I'm lucky, cuz I have pretty small breasts, it runs in my family. I just don't wear bras, because I also think they suck, and they were causing a lot of pain to be concentrated on the chest, which usually hurts anyway. Good luck finding something, I've seen a lot of people wear sports bras but the elastic makes the pain worse sometimes.

Sep 18, 2015 4:25 PM

Kittypain, it's Playtex 18 hour, Fitting Fabulous with Lift, #5453. I won't buy another. This is the first wireless thats as supportive as I needed and full coverage. πŸ™πŸŒΌ

Sep 19, 2015 9:05 PM

The Genie bras are fairly comfortable. I like the way they fit and feel. They have removable pads so you can wear them with or without.

Sep 19, 2015 9:38 PM

The Genie bread are comfortable, but not enough support for me. I'm quite endowed, a gift (of curse) room my mother. Lol The Plates support has been the best for me to date.πŸ™πŸŒΌ

Sep 19, 2015 9:40 PM

I agree, ladies with larger tatas would not get the support from the Genie bras.

Sep 20, 2015 9:56 PM

I had to get professionally fitted. I was wearing the wrong size for years. It's been 3 months wearing a proper fitted bra and some of my upper and lower back pain has gone away.

Sep 20, 2015 10:08 PM

Fruit of the loom used to make a front hook sports style that was enough support for my big girls. I was so upset when I learned they discontinued the FT308 model. Can't find another as good.
When I get home from work the bra comes off immediately!!

Sep 22, 2015 11:31 AM

I wanted to try the GenIe Bra but I too am well endowed. All of the women in my family are DD or larger. Don't think it would offer enough support for me. Maybe for around the house because I'm the house I don't wear one.

Sep 22, 2015 4:01 PM

I found the best, most comfortable bras ever. They are just a pull over so there's no fighting to clasp them in the back. I, like you, do not like to go out without a bra on, but these sure do the trick for me. I'm not sure if you want me to mention the brand name on here but I believe both Hanes & Fruit of the Loom carry this style. Hope this helps.

Sep 22, 2015 4:29 PM

See, the pulling over Is actually worse for me

Sep 23, 2015 7:39 AM

I have always worn an expensive, underwire bra. Then, fibromyalgia happened. After trying numerous different bras, I only wear Genie bras, now. No clasps, no straps, no underwires, and no pain. I buy 2 sizes too big, fits perfect. The bras run small so a larger size seems to work best. Good luck! P.S. The Genie bra also comes with a zipper in the front, for those that can't pull a bra over your head.

Sep 23, 2015 9:14 AM

My breasts hurt if I don't wear one - I'm only a 32B but I'm 4"10 so it's fairly big for me. I hate underwiring, I hate itchy materials, I hate when the straps get twisted. Right now I'm just wearing a sports bra but I miss my cute ones.

Sep 24, 2015 1:37 AM

The best I find are the ones that come two in a package that look like a sports bra. There are no under wires, iritating nylon tricot or hooks to deal with. You get them at wal mart, Walgreens, RiteAid. Finding something comfortable is a difficult task.

Sep 26, 2015 12:28 AM

I, too, was wearing the wrong size for years. I thanked the woman who sized me and said "oh my, i never knew that bras could be comfortable." Now of course, I am having issues because I'm well endowed and sports bras, which were once ever so comfy have become torture because the straps dig into my shoulders. I found this website that asks a bunch of questions about your bra and how it fits, I will have to find the website. I haven't posted from them yet because of disability "benefits" I have to save up to purchase a bra that actually fits comfortably.

One word of advice, Dillard's has an end of year sale where they sell bras for over half off and the ladies usually know what they're doing when they measure you for size. That's how i found out i was in the wrong size for over a decade lol.

I'm going to keep looking for the better bra for those of us with "bodacious naa-naas" as the women in my father's family call them (that's where I got em bc I sure didn't get it from the other side of the family. Some days I envy a double AA.)

Happy bra hunting (three words that should never be put together haha)

Sep 26, 2015 4:15 AM

I wear a genie bra or something like that which I get thro the post. Very comfortable and supportive. Straps are not too thin either

Sep 26, 2015 6:14 AM

I don't wear one unless it's for work. They feel like being shrouded in razor wire and a rib binder...

Sep 26, 2015 11:40 PM

I used to not be able to wear underwrite bras. But since my Gastric vertical sleeve surgery I can now. I used to be a DD but now these puppy's have shrunk, and I don't have any idea where I need to go to get fitted for the right size .

Sep 26, 2015 11:56 PM

@Weezie12, do you have a Dillard's anywhere near you? Their lingerie sections should be able to help. I've found that Victoria Secrets has never been good at measuring and their products have gone down hill. Another thing to consider is with everything, sizes are different depending upon the brand. Department lingerie salespeople usually know the difference.


The company i was thinking of was Tru&Co, I believe. They ask a series of questions and they make decisions about your size after the quizzes and their returns are easy. I am looking forward to trying their company out.

Sep 27, 2015 12:29 AM

Lane Bryant will fit you and will recommend one that will be best for you. They run specials several times through the year where you can buy one get on free or half off. And they have coupons you can use too.

Sep 27, 2015 1:44 AM

I am large in the chest (JJ) and had to give up bras due to pain and my pressure urticaria. I like the sports bras through Roamans. Soft, no underwrite and the only thing bra like I can were for a few hours

Sep 27, 2015 2:12 PM

I like Soma vanishing back bras. They are designed to not bind so you don't get bra bulges but that also makes them much more comfortable. I think they were recommended by a FMS website and OprahπŸ˜„. You can order them online.

Sep 27, 2015 2:47 PM

Before the costeochondritis, a well fitting bra was AMAZING! But now not so much. I'll check out those Soma bras. I found a couple and I'm always looking for ways to get around it being obvious I'm braless.

Sep 27, 2015 8:54 PM

I am SO WITH YOU on that one!! Wish we'd all burned them in the 70's and they'd never came back!! Lol I hate them. Often wondering if I could just have the boobs removed and never have to worry about it again!!

Sep 30, 2015 4:55 PM

I too hate bras, I where silk undershirts at home, and camasols. I try to wear sports bras but a bigger size for comfort. I also was measured for proper fit and went a size bigger around bottom. Hate barbed wire can't do them at all. Luves

Oct 06, 2015 10:46 AM

Welcome to my painful world.I am new on here and look forward to reading others stories.

Oct 06, 2015 7:42 PM

Lane Bryant has a cacique line of bras that are the most comfy I've ever worn. I'm a 42FFF so I would know.

Oct 06, 2015 7:57 PM

Sweetie, totally agree with that statement. Very comfortable and love the ones with the extra cup padding.

Oct 06, 2015 8:45 PM

Me too! I even have a problem with nightgowns that have adjustable straps. The little plastic piece feels like it is stabbing me in the back when I lay down 😑

Oct 20, 2015 2:55 PM

Thank goodness, I'm not crazy.

Oct 20, 2015 4:43 PM

I have recently found im the same..cant stand wearing a bra..i find them very uncomfortable..even wearing the bras that i once found comfortable.. so i wear a bra when i leave the house ( which isnt often) rest of the time i either dont wear one or i wear comfort top... even cant wear them at times ..

Oct 21, 2015 12:25 AM

Thanks sweetie pie I will keep that in mind, bless you for carrying those big girls around. Love and light moshell

Oct 23, 2015 12:10 AM

When I was about 13 I was pouring out of a C cup and now I am 36DD and it is HELL to wear a bra for me. I usually wear a sports bra that has a good amount of padding, its still not great but it does the job for the few hours of wearing it.

Oct 23, 2015 7:44 AM

Jenna, when I was 13 I was the same and now am in a 42DDD!! The pain in my back from all of my surgeries and the pain that these girls cause when I do wear the bra (pulling on my shoulders) is a nightmare. So, when I go out, I wear the bra and as soon as I walk in the door, I set those puppies free and throw the bra on the floor... LOL!!! Sometimes just the thought of having to put one on is distressing. They are just too big to go out in public without the bra. Now that I'm older, they're certainly not perky.. I've got hanging gardens and it's amazing I don't trip over them when I get up in the morning.. LOL!! πŸŒ»πŸ™πŸ»

Oct 23, 2015 9:33 AM

I feel you. I try to only wear one when I'm going to be out all day, or wearing some thing that might make me"high beam" people. Other than that I wear large shirts, or a wife beater tank then a shirt on top. I'm large up to, and with chronic neck pain wearing a bra can make it worse.

Oct 23, 2015 9:50 AM

I can't ware a bra at all a sport bra if I have to go out or when I'm with family cause I don't want to be see that way

Oct 23, 2015 1:32 PM

The Playtex bra without wires... It was clearance... No longer available! 😭. I guess I'll have to ship around again. πŸ‘ŽπŸ™πŸŒΌ

Oct 23, 2015 1:34 PM

I usually just shop online for bras because going out is to hard. But definitely try looking online flappyslady81!! You might be able to buy a few at a time just so you can always have one!!

Oct 23, 2015 1:48 PM

I've been doing online shopping two years. But the last 2 I had to return because they were too small. So I went to the store. That's when I found the Playtex. I always thought of them as "old lady" bras... Guess that means I'm old! Lol. I'll try finding it online. πŸ™πŸŒΌ

Oct 23, 2015 1:49 PM

Youre not old! Lol. I wear Playtex too! And I'm 18 haha

Oct 23, 2015 1:56 PM

Well I may not be old but I don't feel 53 years young! Lol 🌼

Oct 23, 2015 2:00 PM

I don't feel 18 either XD pains always making me feel like I'm 70 :P

Oct 24, 2015 5:47 AM

I have the same trouble I switched to a sports bra it helps most days.

Oct 24, 2015 8:21 AM

Go onto the "just my size" website. They do have Playtex "old lady" bras without the wires.. LOL!! They also have fancy ones, underwire and sports bras. They have ALL sizes, brands and prices and you should be able to find something there. I sure wish I did t have to wear an over the shoulder boulder holder, but I have no choice when I'm out and about. Hope this helps in your shopping.πŸ™πŸ»πŸŒ»

Oct 24, 2015 9:45 AM

Hey Alwayz, question.trying to decide if I should just wear a sports bra on Tuesday morning and then if too gassy, just put it in the clothing bag and go without coming home?

Oct 24, 2015 10:44 AM

Thanks AlwayZ! I'll check those out! πŸ™πŸŒΌ

Oct 25, 2015 10:59 AM

I have the exact same problem, the straps increase my shoulder pain and the wires increase my costochrondritis pain. At the moment I'm wearing the comfy stretchy bras with pads like little crop tops or old lady bras as I call them, my back hurts less wearing them too and I can breathe better

Oct 25, 2015 2:48 PM

There ones that I found that work the best for me are the ones that just pull over my head, no clasps. They're super stretchy and haven't wider straps so they don't cut into my shoulders. I think they're made by Hanes.

Oct 25, 2015 3:02 PM

Kitty pain I had a breast reduction when I was 16yrs.old,but understand you.

Oct 26, 2015 12:49 PM

Amanda, that's the best idea. It is definitely the direction I would take so that you can be comfy and if not, just ditch it!!πŸ’•πŸ™πŸ»πŸŒ»

Oct 28, 2015 12:59 AM

I wear the sports bra's from wal- mart all the time and when nessacery a bra I got a the Avenue for big women no under wires. I to don't like the wire's they cause to much pain.

Oct 28, 2015 6:39 AM

Alwayz, that's exactly what I did when I realized I had stitches almost under the left breast. Have to wear it today, but only for a little bit. When I get home, it comes off!!!!!!

Oct 28, 2015 12:00 PM

I just accepted the fact that I don't wear bras and that means you can see some nipple every now and then. I'd rather feel comfortable than try to do what society applies as 'normal'. Since I am not normal anyways (:

Oct 28, 2015 12:26 PM

Yay!!! ScoliYogi, it's such a shame that as women we feel pressured to conform to what our screwed up society says is "right" or pretty. I go out without a bra most of the time. However I can wear an A cup lol so there is not much to see. βœŒοΈπŸ’œ

Oct 28, 2015 2:06 PM

The wire can always be removed. Make a tiny slit either end of the bra, grab some pliars and pull.
I mostly wear sports bras (all cotton) when I have to wear one. Since my fibro & chronic pain has gotten so bad I was forced to retire last year I only wear one when I have company or leave the house.

Oct 28, 2015 2:47 PM

Hanes and Just my size have ones u pull over your head. They have wider shoulder straps and a wider band underneath. No metal anywhere. I am (sorry if tmi, trying to make a point here) a 55 DD, translate that into a 3x in these pullover. I hate bras too. I always felt like I was tied up under my clothes. These, I have fallen asleep in and never was uncomfortable. Wal-Mart has these for less than $8.00 each

Oct 28, 2015 6:09 PM

The link didn't work with the first one

Oct 28, 2015 6:21 PM

Those are for fancy ballgowns, backless dresses, strapless dresses. Think red carpet for those unless u are lucky enough to be a full B or C cup. DD wouldn't work with those.

Nov 01, 2015 8:39 PM

Try a genie bra ..you can put it on by stepping in and pulling up. I wear it when I have those days where all clothes hurt, but you have to wear a bra. No wires and they come with removable pads. Hope that helps.

Nov 01, 2015 8:49 PM

I want a Genie bra. (They didn't have my size) I got from Rite Aid a sort of Genie Bra but with a spanx effect for your tummy and it is SO COMFORTABLE I wish I could wear it as a shirt itself instead of underneath one.

Also, there is a new website I see advertised on tv called AdoreMe.com that may have comfy ones. Playtex also might have some nice ones now.

I personally love Victoria's Secret, but it's been a LONG time since their bra's have been comfortable.

Nov 02, 2015 1:18 PM

I am in same boat. Very painful to be wearing a bra at all but i have found one that i do like. It is soft and fastens in the front. It is made for breast cancer patients but i love it. Made by Blue Canoe organics. I am a bigger woman and they work goid when you HAVE to wear one

Aug 02, 2016 8:17 PM

Me bras hurt so bad to the point that I can't wear one plus I have cervical radiculopathy and bras simply put too much weight on my neck and I have a large cup size and to boot I get these nasty lesions on my chest from bras I have allergic reaction to the fabric in those yucky sweaty things which I think the bra was the worst invention in human history! Just a plain evil invention and painful too!

Aug 03, 2016 6:02 AM

I wear 3 of these ...in diff colours, (at the same time)
They are under Β£3 ($5) each from ebay, & they hold the girls in place with no seems, wires or hooks to contend with! And on really cold days i put soft daisy shaped sticky-things on my nips (or "scanny wheelnuts" as my husband calls them!)

Aug 03, 2016 6:06 AM

Daisies to stop the pointing! 🐴

Aug 30, 2016 4:34 PM

Lucky they just discovered that bras are bad lol. I HATE them. They hurt me a lot, and I generally try not to wear one, though I've grown huge boobs in the last few years, so kinda have to if its a warm day, can't cover up with a coat and scarves

Aug 30, 2016 6:10 PM

Sooz, I wear a DDD Cup and I usually don't wear a bra. It hurts me because they pull on my shoulders really badly and cause my neck to hurt. I have to also say, when I go outside, I'll wear one and take it off as soon as I get home. I don't worry about the daisy sticky things.. If I get a chill I go, "Oh look, turkey's done!!" LOL!!πŸ˜‚

Aug 31, 2016 4:25 PM

I am the official president of the "IBTC" Itty Bitty Tittie Committee. I used to wish I had boos now I love the fact that my little A's will never sag or even require a bra. It took me a very longtime to appreciate the little things in life, lol.

Aug 31, 2016 5:05 PM

Omg.its not a bra..it's a harness.

Sep 01, 2016 2:47 AM

Omg LMB... πŸ˜‚im in fits n giggles hunni! I dont think i could go out whithout the girls strapped inπŸ€—

Sep 01, 2016 10:20 AM

I've started just embracing the jiggle. They're just boobs and they're nice boobs. I'm not gonna make myself uncomfortable just for someone else and I don't care if they can tell I'm not wearing a bra. :P

Sep 01, 2016 5:51 PM

LMB... I love it!!! I'd gladly share if you wanted... LOL!!πŸ˜‚πŸ«πŸ‡πŸ˜Š

Sep 01, 2016 6:12 PM

Thank you all ... Ugh have to bra shop lots one ones to consider.... And yes they suck!

Sep 03, 2016 4:03 AM

OMG I am right there with you! I am an early cup and if I don't wear one everyone knows... So I stack them up with sanitary pads as they are sticky and soak up the gallons of sweat that happens since my hysterectomy. I also wear an ahh bra the rest of the time or a shape wear tank. But someone needs to make a comfy underwire bra with soft absobant padding on the wires and soft wide straps that keeps you up AND feels comfortable enough that it doesn't send your pain score rocketing... Please

Sep 06, 2016 4:33 PM

It took me a couple years to get over the embarrassment of not waring a bra out I'm a d and just can't deal with the pain. I've gone back to waring them around my one daughter who bought me two expensive bras for xmas. After ten plus years without. Now I do put them on only for my family.

Sep 06, 2016 8:50 PM

LMB, I'd be more then happy to share as well. Finding a DDD bra, almost an E that doesn't leave marks is almost impossible

Sep 06, 2016 8:57 PM

My daughter is a D. She would give me her bras as she out grew them...cheeky little bitch. Teenagers are so much fun. As time has gone on I learned boobs aren't all they are cracked up to be. I am happy with my A cup. I shall remain the founding member of TIBTC-The Itty Bitty Tittie Committee. Proudly :)

Sep 07, 2016 5:14 AM

I just wanted to say, I love how you are all happy with your breast sizes, though some of you would love to down-size in order to get some relief. When I say happy there, I mean not self-concious.
Also, I think it's refreshing to find proud below average breast size people. I actually think if I was a woman, I'd rather have somewhere in between so as not to be objectifed or to have back problems.

Sep 07, 2016 5:26 AM

Hehehe what i would do if i had a willie for a day lol πŸ˜‰

Sep 07, 2016 7:10 AM

LMAO!!!! You're soooooo bad, Lulabel.. But I love it.. πŸ˜³πŸ˜‰πŸ˜‚

Sep 08, 2016 8:29 AM

People have said that to me before Lulabel πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚.

Sep 26, 2016 10:28 AM

I wear those stick on backless bras and those nipped petal things. No straps, no underwire ,and no feeling like you're being squeezed. Of course they might not work for everyone. I need bras more for coverage than for support. I'm only a 32-C but I way like 95 lbs. So they're decent for my size. But not enough to need a sports bra.

Sep 26, 2016 10:31 AM

Lol I call small boobs hootlets.

Sep 26, 2016 11:30 AM

I havent worn a bra for years best thing ever not wearing one

Sep 26, 2016 5:41 PM

I hate bras too. Am a B cup so often if I am wearing a dark t-shirt I go without. I like the sport ones but it's gotten where it's hard to put them on.

My mom has even a harder time. She wears a 46B ... But when you find that size the cup is a full figure. Mom isn't. Does anyone have suggestions for her?

Sep 26, 2016 11:12 PM

I never laughed so hard at some of the comments! I never knew there were so many comments on bras to wear... What to wear... Or not wear! Lol so here's mine, I hate bras too, unfortunately I'm not able to wear a sports bra without looking like a cows udder! Lol I have psoriasis and wish I could it would be less painful. When I come home it's "bra off" and let the chips fall where they may! Lol It is liberating though. Needed a laugh thanks!πŸ˜‚

Sep 27, 2016 12:45 AM

New studies show that bras offer nothing for keeping our breasts supported, in fact they found that women who don't wear bras had less sagging than women who do.. but i completely understand how you feel, i hate going out in public without a bra.. maybe one day no one will need one. That would be so nice

Sep 27, 2016 10:23 PM

I found it so entertaining and enlightening to hear so many different view points on this subject. Thanks everyone for an fun and mentally stimulating evening.

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